BWS gets award from SCOTUS

Gmail Chat with Tao Lin

Gmail Chat with BWS (my friend) and TL (Tao Lin)

Tuesday, Oct 27, 10/27/09

2:00 PM

TL: hi benjamin

2:01 PM

 

BWS: Hi Tao Lin

 

TL: how are you

 

BWS: I'm good -- how's Brooklyn? haven't been there in a while

 

TL: seems ok, i'm in nyu's library right now, by washington sq. park

 

how old are you?

2:02 PM

BWS: Yes, nice -- I'm 62 at the moment

 

TL: oh, cool

 

what made you want to bid on a gchat with me?

 

BWS: Well, reserve judgment for 40 years, I'd say

2:03 PM

So, my significant other, who's a poet turned me on to you by way of Ugly Fish and eeeee, eee, etc. and Ithought it would be fun to chat a little

 

TL: oh, good

2:04 PM

is your significant other there right now?

 

BWS: Yes, she said you saved her life by being real -- no

 

TL: interesting

 

where are you? in your office?

 

BWS: But , she would really like to chat if you have another auction -- an incentive, she's smart and funny

2:05 PM

TL: did she tell you to ask me certain things?

 

BWS: no -- although she said to say she appreciates the K-mart realists

 

TL: oh, good, how old is she?

2:06 PM

BWS: well, that's for her to say

 

TL: hehe ok

 

BWS: I think she's 29

 

TL: hehe, you don't know her age?

 

BWS: it's one of those temporal anomalies

 

TL: i see

2:07 PM

what do you think when you see 'hehe' by the way, what noise do you imagine

 

BWS: like I said in email -- I think ugly fish is very fine work

 

TL: what do you like about that poem?

 

BWS: a sly chuckle

 

TL: i see

2:08 PM

BWS: the arrangement of words

 

TL: i see

 

have you ever seen an 'ugly fish'?

 

BWS: so, what about the arrangement of words -- either correct or incorrect makes the bad feelings go away? (to quote, sort of)

2:09 PM

TL: i would say partly just 'the passage of time,' since arranging works 'takes time'

 

BWS: yes, I agree, passage of time has helped me

 

TL: partly typing things to amuse oneself, or to see something more accurately

2:10 PM

BWS: and, I have seen some very ugly fish -- or at least pics of really ugly deep-sea ones -- but they think they are very fine

 

TL: hehe

 

there is a species of fish called 'ugly fish' though

 

i went fishing a lot with my family growing up, and we would catch one sometimes

 

BWS: yes, I love to type (used to write by hand) -- makes me feel good, very soothing

2:11 PM

really, where did you grow up and fish?

 

TL: in florida

 

we fished mostly on little piers where people's personal boats were docked, or on larger piers

 

BWS: oh -- haven't been there much -- I used to fish in Maine -- caught flounder, which are odd if not ugly

2:12 PM

TL: we caught flounder also

 

did you eat them?

 

BWS: yes, my mother, who seldom cooked anything, did fry the fish I caught -- touching

 

TL: did you 'dip' it in tartar sauce

 

or some other sauce

2:13 PM

(let me know if you want to talk about something else, or if you want to ask me any questions, by the way, just go ahead and ask whatever)

 

BWS: hmmm -- maybe tartar, but I think lemon juice was more common

 

used to live in Maine

 

TL: it sounds good, fried flounder

2:14 PM

BWS: do you still eat fish?

 

TL: rarely

 

i eat sushi sometimes

 

do you?

 

BWS: yes -- although what I eat gets less and less and more and more restricted -- bored with most food

 

TL: interesting

2:15 PM

what foods still 'excite' you?

 

BWS: we eat a lot at Chiptole, believe it or not

 

it's not "exciting" but it's good, or at least one imagines it is

 

TL: i like chipotle

 

did you read a lot when you were my age -- 26

2:16 PM

BWS: really -- some people have a problem because it was once owned by McDonald, I believe

 

TL: oh yeah

 

BWS: yes -- I was a grad student

 

TL: they use organic ingredients, i think, chipotle, or some

 

what writers did you like when you were in your 20's?

2:17 PM

BWS: I read a lot -- I don't remember a lot --

2:18 PM

oh, well, Joyce (from Dubliners), Maugham, Henry James, D.H. Lawrence, read a lot of philosophy, because that was my major and grad school thingy

 

TL: i see

 

do you like to read about people your age?

 

currently

 

BWS: you mean people who are currently my age?

 

TL: yes

 

like characters who are 62

2:19 PM

BWS: not particularly, because they don't have interesting problems t that age, or they have already committed suicide

 

TL: haha

 

damn

2:20 PM

do you think you don't have interesting problems, currently, in your life

 

BWS: well, I mean it -- I do read a lot about people my age who were alive 100 years ago or so, most of whom were civil engineers -- which I am interested in

 

TL: hm, where do you find books where people are 62 in 1910?

2:21 PM

BWS: not interesting ones, especially -- or maybe their novelty has worn off -- everything seemed so critical when I was 20-30 years younger

 

TL: interesting

 

would you say you are 'calmer' now?

 

it seems desirable to me to be 'calmer'

 

BWS: that's one reason I like your talk about neutral facial expression

2:22 PM

TL: i see

 

haha

 

i like calmness

 

seems like one of the only long term, sustainable 'solutions' to 'despair'

 

BWS: very desirable, and I am calmer -- it seems to have required giving up a sense of urgency

 

TL: hm, interesting

2:23 PM

i think that's what i'm 'working towards' in my life, if i'm working towards anything

 

BWS: I try to be calm, but then emotional stuff happens, without my agreement

 

TL: me too

 

do you have children?

2:24 PM

BWS: how about emotions being dependent upon thoughts? Are thoughts dependent upon words?

 

TL: emotions seem to be dependent to a large degree on thoughts, and i would say that thoughts are not possible, to a large degree, without words

2:25 PM

what do you think?

 

BWS: I agree -- yes, we have a son, age 28 -- he's a law student. but I doubt that he will be a lawyer in any conventional sense

2:26 PM

TL: what do you think he'll be?

 

BWS: to a large degree -- not absolutely?

 

oh, he loves to read and he's loves history and languages (at which I am very bad) -- it's hard to say -- he's smart and has a lot of options

2:27 PM

TL: maybe absolutely, i say to a large degree to accommodate me not knowing that much scientifically about it

 

what else have you been reading? in terms of fiction

 

BWS: have you read Wiitgenstein on language -- do your friends read him?

 

TL: i haven't read him

 

'noah cicero' has read him a lot, i think

2:28 PM

http://noah-cicero.blogspot.com

2:29 PM

BWS: he's interesting and refreshing, especially if you get stuck in academic philosophy -- do you think language/thoughts/etc. is primarily a scientific inquiry?

 

TL: hm

 

BWS: yeah, I agree

 

so, how and why did you start writing?

2:30 PM

TL: i guess there is just one level of thinking about it, and then another level, a concrete level, and on the concrete level (like neurons or things) it is primarily a scientific thing

 

i started when i took a creative writing class in college

 

i think it just seemed like an easy, stress-free class to take

 

BWS: Yes, but then there's the problem of correlating (if that's what it is) neural patterns with "thoughts" that don't seem at ll concrete

 

TL: and i had been listening to a lot of music of which i liked the lyrics enough to print them and have them on one piece of paper to read, so i wanted to reproduce that to some extent

2:31 PM

BWS: I see, interesting -- don;t you say something in a poem about poetry and song lyrics being the same?

 

TL: i think on the most comprehensive level 'thinking' inquiries probably are not scientific, as on the most comprehensive level one would need to think about 'what' consciousness is, and that seems beyond science, or something, based on what i know

2:32 PM

i might have said that

 

BWS: yes -- as I get older I understand less and less, which is part of feeling calmer, because I no longer belive that I can really understand anything, or that it matters any more

 

TL: i modeled a lot of my early poems on song lyrics, but the lyrics i was modeling them on weren't conventional, they were pretty much just 'free verse' poems, they didn't have verse chorus verse, so i was modeling my poems on lyrics that were modeled on poems, maybe

2:33 PM

that is kind of funny

 

if you no longer believe you can understand anything, when you are living each day or reading something what do you focus on exactly, if not 'learning' or 'insight'?

2:35 PM

BWS: it's mostly just the pleasure of the action -- i like to be outside on a sunny day, and I also like to lie on the sofa and read things that engage my brain somehow -- it's pleasurable

 

TL: i like that

 

BWS: you are very engaging

2:36 PM

TL: so you try to focus on surface things, or on 'sensory' things?

 

BWS: so I am happy to have found your writing (thanks to my friend, who explores writing and poetry more than I do)

 

well, yes -- because my brain always defaults to abstractions

2:37 PM

TL: i think i try to do that (focus on sensory things), but then i'm somehow not able to fully (or at all, even) accept that (as how the rest of my life will be), and i start thinking about how to 'make progress' or 'be productive' or 'learn, somehow' in my life, and that then dominates all my thinking

 

hm, your brain defaults to abstractions? can you elaborate?

 

BWS: exactly -- let it go

2:38 PM

i don't have a very precise memory, so I tend to absorb impressions from what I read rather than a lot of detail

 

TL: it seems like i'm not at all ready to 'let it go,' i feel immense pressure against me, like, deleting my internet presence and just working a 'low key' job at walmart or something and just doing little things in my room every day, nothing that i would view as 'productive' on a large scale, or a scale that builds on itself

2:39 PM

i see, re absorbtion

 

BWS: isn't that enough?

 

TL: do you mean my current thinking is 'enough'? i shouldn't try harder to 'let it go'?

2:40 PM

BWS: I don't know how to try hard to let things go -- but isn't it enough that we are alive and so on -- I used to think it wasn't, too (if that's what you mean) -- it's external pressure

2:41 PM

TL: hm, yeah, it is enough

 

i think on a certain level i already have 'let it go,' because when i'm doing productive things i'm 'ever conscious' of their arbitrariness, i think

 

BWS: well, it's taken me a long time to begin to accept this

 

TL: interesting

2:42 PM

have your actions changed, like what you do each day, since you have accepted that more?

 

BWS: well, yes -- arbitrariness worries me sometimes -- i don't see the antidote out there

2:43 PM

yes -- I don't run around wasting time as much, trying to distract myself from despair, etc., etc.

2:44 PM

TL: how did you try to distract yourself in the past, that you wouldn't now?

 

BWS: hey, 40 minutes gone

2:45 PM

oh -- always looking for something to do -- now I'm more or less happy to sit and read, or listen to music, or something

 

TL: i see

 

that sounds nice

2:46 PM

BWS: it is nice

 

TL: did you have anything else you wanted to talk about that you didn't get to talk about yet?

 

BWS: it's a real problem how to be in the world

2:47 PM

no -- or yes, a lot -- but it's been a pleasure to chat -- do the auction again, and my friend will chat, too

 

TL: i liked talking to you

 

you seem 'zen'

 

if you have any specific questions i could stay a little longer

 

BWS: if so, its in the words

2:48 PM

well, tell me asome more about ugly fish, and how you came to write it

 

TL: okay

 

i think i was just trying to think about the life of an ugly fish that is depressed, how much despair it must feel, alone in the dark and really ugly, in order to compare my life to that

2:49 PM

'hehe'

2:50 PM

BWS: it's great -- how about the very different "are you okay?" which has a somewhat lyrical quality, that you seem to want to get away from in other pieces?

 

like in eeee eeee eeeee

2:51 PM

TL: hm, to me 'are you okay?' was more like a diary-esque piece, just a 'artfully' edited diary of two people, edited to have the most emotional impact on me

2:53 PM

BWS: yeah -- you know, one of the things that is good for me now is that I work for Legal Aid and I talk to a lot of people who have awful things happening in their lives -- it helps me compare to my own -- which sounds self-serving, but I donlt mean it that way

 

TL: that makes sense

2:54 PM

it seems beneficial to both parties for one to compare their 'better' life to someone else's 'worse' life

 

it seems to cause urges to want things to be more balanced

2:55 PM

BWS: and it helps to have some connection to the other person, through possibly shared experiences of loneliness or aloneness -- like ugly fish -the dreaded empathy word

2:56 PM

the conservative judges claim not to approve of empathy -- are they sociopaths?

 

TL: yes, that makes sense, and is a defense, or explanation, for 'miserable' literature, books where the characters are 'miserable' (a lot of people seem to criticize books where the characters are 'miserable')

 

the LA times said camus' 'the stranger' or 'sociopath' about my recent book

2:57 PM

BWS: defense - because it helps the reader feel better? Have you read David Foster Wallace's "The Depresed Person?"

 

TL: yes, i have

2:58 PM

BWS: did that make you feel better?

 

TL: defense, because it shows that thinking about miserable people creates urges in the person to want to balance things more -- which will cause the person to feel less bad (by contrast), and also cause the person to want the other person to feel less bad

 

i don't remember, probably

 

i prefer less analytical stories about depressed people

2:59 PM

BWS: are you sort of a utilitarian? -- I mean, increase net happiness, reduce net unhppiness, etc.?

 

TL: i'm not sure, 'offhand' that seems like something i would support

 

BWS: yeh -- it sounds good, but it's hard to understand what the calculations would look like

3:00 PM

especially if we don;t know the effects of our actions

 

except for very, very short term

 

TL: after considering it some, i don't think i would think in terms of that

 

BWS: ow do you think about it?

3:01 PM

I mean, how do you decide what to do, or not to do, from day to day?

 

TL: hm, i think i decide based on the small, temporary context that i 'construct' for myself each day

3:02 PM

BWS: hmmm - do you worry about consistency (philosophically) from day to day of the context

 

TL: but i think i know at each moment that 'i know i have created a context, and am operating within this context, and that what i know is good or bad is only true within this context, which i have arbitrarily constructed'

3:03 PM

i think i don't worry much about consistency, except for practical matters (like if my friends will be able to 'know' who i am and enjoy my company as a consistent human being),because i view all contexts as equally arbitrary

 

BWS: so, does the context follow you (like a faithful dog) from one day to then ext, or can you choose a new context if you wish -- and on what criteria?

3:04 PM

you see, my mind defaults to abstractions ...

 

yes, I can buy that -- all contexts are equally arbitrary

3:05 PM

TL: i tend to not choose new contexts, unless my context with another person is to have a fluctuating context, like if my girlfriend and i both want to do something destructive one night, like each steaks, i'm willing to do that, within the context of erratic contexts

 

each = eat

 

BWS: cool -- I like that

3:06 PM

TL: i like that you said this: 'especially if we don;t know the effects of our actions / except for very, very short term'

 

BWS: do you like having a fluctuating context -- or does that cause anxiety?

 

TL: i don't ever hear someone say that

 

yet it seems so obviously true

 

i think i enjoy having a fluctuating context, since it seems more 'true' than a steady context, in that it seems to be more of a natural actualization of consciousness, instead of a machine

3:07 PM

BWS: I have been repeatedly ambushed by things that seem obvious upon reflection

 

TL: i'm going to eat dinner with my girlfriend soon

 

BWS: yeah -- I like that -- more "true" somehow -- all the other standard contexts seem constructed, although one can understand why they have been

 

TL: do you have a blog or some other internet presence 'thingy'?

3:08 PM

BWS: no -- i don't really want to have a presence beyond certain friends, etc.

 

TL: i see

3:09 PM

that sounds nice

 

i am going to go get ready to eat now

 

BWS: actually, I'm kind of proud of myself for navigating this gmail thingy

 

TL: it was very nice talking to you

 

hehe, you seem to be doing a good job

 

feel free to email me if you want to talk about something

 

BWS: OK -- it's been a pleasure -- what are you going to eat -- is this an erratic contect sort of day?

 

context

 

TL: we are going to eat 'steaks,' hehe

3:10 PM

(i usually, or 70% of the time, eat only raw, vegan food)

 

BWS: Hehe -- what does that make you think of?

 

TL: i don't know, jsut seems 'fun' somehow

 

okay, i am going to go now

 

thank you for bidding, i appreciate your support

 

and have a nice night

3:11 PM

BWS: goodbye -- keep writing -- do another auction .... Ben

 

TL: will do, probably

 

good night